If so many Armenians died, doesn't this mean genocide?

Armenians, and even Armenian Historians seem to use the idea that since a lot of Armenians died, that there "MUST HAVE BEEN" an order to kill them all. However, in history, that isn't always the case.

In fact, though Vahakn Dadrian usually points to Aram Andonian documents like the Talat Pasha Telegrams which supposedly proves genocide, though are generally considered to be forgeries, Vahakn makes the point that, since so many Armenians died, in so many instances and places... then these documents must be authentic...

Oh, I believe Vahakn was born without logic.

yea, I mean, if there was the intent to kill those people:
1- there wouldn't be any deportation and they would be killed immediately
2- some wouldn't remain in the country
3- none would be able to make it out of the country and have enough number to start the Genocide Lie

The fact that 80% of deportees survived, clearly shows that though there were thousands of casualties, they weren't being targeted for extermination, but simply a deportation.

I agree, its like these Armenians are not familiar with the UN definition of what constitutes a genocide.

U.N. definition?
No, they operate under the ARF/Dashnak special definition: an Armenian died or almost died or thought they might die or could have died or thought about dying. That's how they get to 2M.

"but simply a deportation."

It was not a deportation, it was relocation. Those are two different things. Deportation involves the loss of citizenship, relocation does not. Please take care to use the correct words.

Ottoman muslims were deported from the Balkans and were not permitted to become citizens of the lands from which they were ejected.

Ottoman Armenians were relocated to another part of the Ottoman Empire. Their Ottoman citizenship was not revoked. They were permitted to return to their homes after the war. Many did return but then later chose to leave when the French withdrew support for the Armenian Legion and efforts to form a greater Armenia out of the eastern third of Anatolia.

"The United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment
of the Crime of Genocide, describes genocide as "acts committed
with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical,
racial or religious group." Clearly this definition applies in
the case of the atrocities committed against the Armenians."

I beg to differ, there is no evidence that the Ottomans had the "intent to destroy" any thing, only relocate a hostile population during wartime. However, the effect of what happened to the Armenian people is much worse than the proven intentions of the Ottoman officials. There is a clear gap between the two. However, without proof of genocidal intentions, there can be no genocide in this case. Documents like the Talaat Pasha Telegrams and the Ten Commandments were proven to be forgeries by scholars of Ottoman history. As Gunter Lewey prooved so well in his book, just because 600,000 thousand Armenians died due to fatigue, starvation, disease and massacre does not neccessarilly proove that the Ottoman officials had genocidal intentions. Angry mobs massacring innocent Armenians is not one and the same as the government ordering such massacres. Besides, as you said, the definition of genocide did not even exist then, so this is really all ex post facto. You can't prosecute someone for a crime committed before the law even existed.

I once took an international law class and in this class, we were taught that you can not prosecute people ex post facto. So if Turkey is prosecuted for something that happened under Ottoman times, it would be ex post facto and therefore, against international law. The only exception made for this rule was the Nuremberg Trials, but even those were not nearly as ex post facto as this is (note, Nuremberg Trials happened in the immediate aftermath of the Holocaust). We are talking about prosecuting a country for something that happened over a 100 years ago. It would be equivalent to prosecuting the United States for what they did to the Native Americans in the 1800's. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

I dont like seeing Euopeans whom killed and massacered Most in Africa, Americas, Asia and in Australia for centuries, to come and freaking Question if Turks did this and since no UN was established at the time if it would be qualified as Genocide or not ???

My question to our European friend what does your ancestors did in the past is qualify under what UN's description for Genocide?

Can you answer me this ?

PS, Sick and Tired of arrogant Europeans, they think that they know everything and mind on everyone elses business. With all the killings in they're history trying to judge other countries for crimes and talk about human rights.

I just expressed my feelings about people who are from Europe and judging Turkey for its past without ever stop to think about they're own past. If you think you are not one of them than don't take it personal.

I am sorry but, I dont remember you, could you referesh my mind ?

Osman, you know, it was the Roman Empire who expelled the Jews from their ancestral homeland in 135 CE. It was the Romans who destroyed the Ancient Jewish Temple. It was the Romans who renamed Ancient Israel Palestine, after our ancient enemies the Phillistines. The Romans killed countless Jews and forced almost all of the rest to flea due to our Bar Kochba Revolt. Yet not a single Jew accuses the Ancient Romans, not to mention their successors, the modern state of Italy, of the crime of genocide, because it was not genocide. We were punished for revolting against Rome, not because of any hatred of Jews. The Holocaust was a genocide, Rwanda was a genocide, what happened to the Turkish Cypriots was an attempted genocide, but the Armenian case was no different than what the Romans did to us after the Bar Kochba Revolt.

No it is the Bias Thinking Of Europe and they way of looking everything else.
Trust me, the only reason many Armenians lost they're lifes and so did Turks because of Europeans because, of they're games to weaken the Ottoman now we have this issue. So tell me how you judge your self on this, since it dirrectly resulted from the act of your ancestors???? I have every right to ask this because, we are being put this genocide allogation for the actions of our ancestors.

Don't try to give me credibility crap, I dont see the reason or the questions behind since there was no UN at the time how these massacers would fit into the genocide term and such is only a hidden way of expressing and making it related to the UN term of Genocide.

Thank you I know what Jews went through all through they're existence and unlike Christians they didnt have anyone to Turn to. Exactly, thank you for getting my point which some people keep failing to catch.

You're right, the appropriate term for what happened to Armenians is:
Forced Internal Exile.

The problem is, Armenians claim that they were deported because they were thought of as foreigners and not natives to the land. So it's a confusing issue. But since Guenter Lewy uses the term deportations, I think it's ok FOR NOW.

Armenians make claims like "there was a genocide as defined by UN in Ottoman Turkey", they presented the "Ten Commandments" (the name is even ridiculous) and "Aram-Naim documents" which are Talat Pasha telegrams which Armenians say prove the intent of the government to exterminate Armenians.

The problem is.... These documents were proven as forgeries, and even Armenian-sided historians try not to use those documents and simply conclude these documents are "questionable", though they try to avoid calling a spade a spade (a forgery).

So since there was no intent of the Ottoman government to kill off Armenians, well then it does not fit the UN definition of genocide. Hence Armenian Genocide should be called Armenian Massacres if anything or Armenian-Ottoman Ethnic conflicts.. or Armenian Relocation or Armenian Rebellion.

So what do Armenians respond ? They call upon Raphael Lemkin who first coined the "genocide" term saying that since he believed in the Armenian Genocide, then the term must be applied to Armenians. However, the definition is clearly expressed by the United Nations in order to stop NATIONS from killing certain groups (that is the purpose of blaming someone for genocide; so that evil governments collapse).

So what they are trying to do is... redefine the UN definition of genocide to apply to the Ottoman Empire.

But then you look at average Armenians... take for example System of a Down, are they really condemning genocide? Are they shouting in their protests and concerts that we should "condemn the CUP Young Turk Government of 1915"??? NOOOOO... This is what they are yelling: "Damn the f***ing Turkish Government!", because they are preaching HATE against Turks... That is what this whole genocide idea comes from, their prejudice against Turks.


As expressed by these protesters --- Armenians say they want justice, Armenians always talk about Turkish cruelty, they call the Ottoman Empire the Ottoman Turkish empire, they blame the Turkish government and claim they are equally as guilty for denying their "genocide". Why? All the people supposedly responsible for this non-existent genocide are now dead, in fact, Talat Pasha the minister, was ASSASSINATED and the killer was let go because of Armenian sympathy in Germany...

What more do Armenians want?
Armenians want LAND, they want REPARATIONS, they want everyone to accept their genocide without question. They want people to hate Turks and Muslims. I'm not making this stuff up, just go to Armenian schools and this is what they teach. They believe that they can overturn the Treaty of Lausanne and take back their territory they lost in 1918!!!!

The criminal definition of Genocide can NEVER be applied to Turkey, not because of the creation date of the UN but because the CURRENT DEFINITION DOES NOT FIT.

I read your post one more time and I have to say I came little to strong on you. I have done this because, I though you were one of the people who came here and act as naive and ask question and the more progress and more open we approach they start turing to other side and being aggressive. I am sory that I exploded on you like that.

Let's try not to be aggressive in any way.
Remember Armenians, Turks, and Kurds are all humans with emotions, so blaming them for anything, is simply ignorant.


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