Kemalism Discussion

From: Ara, May 20, 2008, About Kemalism
Idols are the surest symptoms of a society's backwardness. Stalin in Russia, Hitler in Germany, Mussolini in Italy, Mao in China, Fidel in Cuba, and Ataturk in Turkey: of these only Ataturk has lost none of his initial hold on the masses. The average Turk continues to be brought up (i.e. brainwashed) to believe Kemal is the Father of the Nation because he saved Turkey from the brink of annihilation. That may or may not be true, but it is equally true that most of Turkey's problems today “ among them the introduction of nationalism in an essentially multicultural and cosmopolitan environment, the forceful rejection of traditional values, the festering Armenian question, the irredentism of the Kurds, the fiasco surrounding the application for membership in the EU, a junta's shadowy presence and quasi-veto powers, the rise of fundamentalism, laws that curtail free speech, among other violations of fundamental human rights – may be traced to Kemalist dogmas. Turkey will be born again as a truly civilized, progressive, and democratic nation on the day it discards Kemalism to the dustbin of history the way Russia, Germany, China, and Italy rejected their fascist idols.
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Why I write the way I do? Am I foolish and arrogant enough to think that I can change anyone’s mind? Certainly not. I write by way of wondering why is it that, that which is clearly visible to me should remain shrouded in impenetrable darkness to others who may well be smarter than I am.
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It happens in life all the time. A solution that worked in stage one becomes a recipe for failure in stage two.
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Power corrupts and ideologies decline because they fall into the hands of opportunists who care more about their privileges than the welfare of the people. If Kemal were alive today, would he declare himself a Kemalist?

Kemal continues to be a taboo subject in Turkey. To say anything remotely critical of him is “to offend Turkishness.” which may result in being dragged to court like a common criminal. But since neither Giles Milton, author of PARADISE LOST; SMYRNA 1922 (London, 2008, 426 pages) nor his reviewer, Philip Mansel, author of one of the very best books on Constantinople, are Turkish citizens, they discuss freely and objectively the events surrounding the destruction of Smyrna.

About the so-called mysterious fire, Mansel writes: “Milton quotes eye-witnesses who saw Turkish soldiers pouring oil.”

About Kemal we read: while the burning, looting, raping, and killing were going on, Mustafa Kemal spent days up in a villa courting his future wife Latife Hanim, daughter of one of the many Turkish businessmen who had profited from 'infidel Izmir.'” We are further told that thousands of Greek and Armenian men of military age were deported into the interior “in theory to rebuild villages destroyed by the retreating Greek army: few returned.”
Mansel concludes his review by echoing the very same sentiments I voiced in my recent essay “About Kemalism.” He writes: “Kemal shows that, if nothing succeeds like success, it can also be true that nothing fails like success...If Izmir had retained even a fraction of its cosmopolitan population, it might have helped Turkey's entry into the European Union.” For more details, see THE SPECTATOR (London, 10 May 2008, page 40); or www.spectator.co.uk

From: "k.rdvan" Jun 2, 2008
I have been following this forum for about a year now, and have always found Mr. Ara editorials interesting. Both in dept and ideas. But I have found his dislike for Ataturk, quite vexing. My history of who burned Izmir differs from Mr. Ara, but if it wasn't for Ataturk the Ottoman ( not Turkish ) Kingdom would stretch from Bursa to Samsun. And since neither Bursa or Samsun is located in Europe, applying to join the E.U. without any territory in Europe would be quite outlandish.

Lastly one only needs to read Andrew Mango's biography on Ataturk to see how good his relations were with Eleftherios Venizelos. No past or current leader of Turkey had his special relationship with a Greek Prime Minister.

So if Kemalism ( Republicanism, Populism, Secularism, Revolutionism, Nationalism and Etatism ) is unfit for the E.U. as you suggest, than unlike a Poland or Serbia, Turkey has other options ( Asia ).

From: Macreau@... Jun 2, 2008
. When Kemal was trying to " Westernize" Turks, he was trying to emulate the European powers of his time, namely the Italy of Mussolini and the Germany of Hitler. As these ideologies are dead so should be Kemalizm in the 21 st century. The remnants of these old ideologies are the cause of "Ergenekon " (deep state,) and the train of thought of Perincek & Co. and those lost souls of murderers of Hirant Dink.

Kemal was good for Turks while he was alive, he was unifying force, but now?????? He made Turks to be proud of themselves....for what one may ask....is it for pain they have inflicted on the denizens of Anatolia, or for the pain they have inflicted to their neighbors?

I wonder why Turks keep mentioning Andrew Mango? Is it because he resides in Istanbul ? for he is not a historian although Turks like to call him that ) Kemals biography has been embellished as all parts of Turkish history has been thru the similar sanitization.

As for the burning of Izmir.....of course it does not fit into Turkish history......Have the Kemalist hords done anything similar??? Have they ever.......How many people in this medium know about Cherkez Ethem?????....one has to ask also to Dersim Kurds....Kemalist ideolgy at its best in the 1930s and surviving until today....

As for loooking toward Asia....another pipe dream of Turks....Although Central Asia is composed of Turkic nations they are so different from each other and there are many local animosities . Turks can not get along their own Anatolian Kurds and they think they can with Central Asians??????

From: "k.rdvan" Jun 3, 2008
Mr. Mac,
You can also read Lord Kinross' biography on Ataturk if you'd like, but that would do little good to you. From what I have read of your previous posts, I would rather exchange ideas with a tree than you. Since a tree has less hate and dogma. On the other hand anything you oppose or dislike MUST be good, because the only thing you write about is hate and more hate. I will not waste my time again in replying to you Mr. Mac.

P.S. When I meant Asia, I meant the Asia Cooperation Dialogue which will form the basis of the Asian Union.

From: Macreau@...Jun 3, 2008
Ridvan, clean minds, those who have not been brainwashed by Turkish Educational System, can see the truth.......You have been fed all these make-believe half baked truths when in your "lise"... You answer or not, nobody gives any hoot....the facts are out there...

From: "barbarosarii" Jun 3, 2008
LOL, please for the love of god stop. Does everybody in this forum know that macreau is a douche bag. What a loser. "I would rather exchange ideas with a tree than you ( macreau ). > Since a tree has less hate and dogma." I second that lol.

From: Samosata1@... Jun 7, 2008
Turks had burned 'infidel' sections of towns before in Anatolia, before Izmir If Kemal was more generous in victory to the non Turkish groups, and kept the cosmopolitan character of Izmir, Samsun, Adana,Trabzon, Kayseri Turkey's image would be much better today

From: "k.rdvan" Jun 7, 2008
There are no objective facts! Every report on facts is somebody's opinion. It is therefore, useless to continue debating this subject.

From: "Ara Jun 7, 2008
we either believe objective historians or political propagandists. we may not recognize an honest historian when we see one, but there is no need to identify a propagandist because all politicians are propagandists...for the simple reason that truth and politics are mutually exclusive concepts.

From: Samosata1@...Jun 7, 2008
the sensitivity to Kemal is that without him Turkey would be smaller,maybe 60% of its present size.

So kemalism is still important in Turkey because without it, many Turks think that Turkey might break up. Any negative reporting about Kemal is considered unpatriotic. For the moment Turkish media and the establishment don't want to take any risks by allowing different views on Kemal

From: "k.rdvan" Jun 7, 2008
the sensitivity to Kemal is that without him Turkey would be smaller,maybe 60% of its present size.

More like 40 per cent!

From: "zack_ashi" Jun 7, 2008
Is it make anything different? Today majority of Turkish citizens do not want to be live same land with other nationals like Turk, Kurd, Rum, Ermeni, Cerkez, Laz ...

From: Macreau@...Jun 7, 2008
This is where one notices that Turkey is far from being democratic and more close to fashism. In a democracy more divergent opinions are discussed in the public . After so many years if a country still lives with a personlity cult than that country has not matured enough to be called democracy.

You say the media and the establishment does not want to take the risk....well. this reminds me of an ostrich that does not want to take its head off the sand because of the "danger". Besides, Kemalism that tries to oblitarate other ethnic ( Cherkez, Alawis, Kurds, ) groups has failed....It was the religion that kept these different masses together, but now???? They all want recognition, religion is not binding them anymore, thus....Kemalizm has failed and it is propped up only by the gun....

From: "barbarosarii" Jun 7, 2008
Thank god you are an idiot and have no RELEVANCE! Continue talking out of your ASS.
>This is where one notices that Turkey is far from being democratic and more close to fashism. In a democracy more divergent opinions are discussed in the public . After so many years if a country still lives with a personlity cult than that country has not matured enough to be called democracy.

You say the media and the establishment does not want to take the risk....well. this reminds me of an ostrich that does not want to take its head off the sand because of the "danger". Besides, Kemalism that tries to oblitarate other ethnic ( Cherkez, Alawis, Kurds, ) groups has failed....It was the religion that kept these different masses together, but now???? They all want recognition, religion is not binding them anymore, thus....Kemalizm has failed and it is propped up only by the gun....

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From: "zack_ashi" Jun 7, 2008
Please barbarosarii watch your language my kid is member of this group.

From: "barbarosarii" Jun 8, 2008
For your kids sake sure, but that tin Hitler ( Macreau ) won't make it easy.

From: "Ara Jun 8, 2008
even assuming without Kemal Turkey would be half its present size: it seems to me size does not matter. what matters is to have a progressive leadership that respects the human rights of all its citizens. England is smaller than Russia, but many more Russians emigrate to England than the other way around. the countries of europe are smaller than those in Asia, but if you ever visit a European capital you will find there immigrants from Africa, Asia, and in general from states with backward, totalitarian, and reactionay countries.

having said as much, as an Armenian i am willing to agree that our own leadership in Yerevan is not much better than the Kemalists in Ankara. On the contrary, it may be worse.

From: "k.rdvan" Jun 9, 2008
For arguments sake one overlooks the reforms of Ataturk, which propelled Turkey into the 21'st century. One must not forget, that Turkey did not go through the industrial revolution and imperialism that brought extreme wealth to Europe. For a country, which lacked technological prowess, when it gained Independence its size (resources available) was the most important asset to achieve economic prosperity. Even without participating in the destructive nature of WW2, Turkey today still lacks in the economical sense when compared to the big five European countries. Though, one must not forget that Turkey is the world's twentieth largest economy. That is why in Turkey's situation, its size and natural resources crucial in bringing her economic prosperity; because without economic development human rights and democracy can't materialize and survive.

From: "Ara Jun 9, 2008
i do not think a nation needs a charismatic leader to introduce industrialization. when europe was industrialized it was not as a result of great leaders. and not all of Kemal's reforms worked or were successes. the violent suppression of religion and calling kurds mountain turks and armenians christian turks is an insult to these minorities. most of turkey's problems today, if not all, go back to Kemal's authoritarianism, paternalism, dogmatism, and suppression of fundamental human rights.

From: Macreau@... Jun 8, 2008
When one is unable to answer
When one has no logical train of thought
When one has a brain that has no independent function but what it has been told
Then.......the pinheads have nothing but foul language.
That proves that they have been check mated and the only road to them is swear words.....well such is the way of barbarians...

From: Macreau@... Jun 8, 2008
Hemsinliler Islam olmus Ermenidirler. Koylerindeki konustuklari hemsince eski bir Ermenicedir...

From: Samosata1@... Jun 10, 2008
Turks who favor kemalism might argue that ottomanism was worse

From: "barbarosarii" Jun 10, 2008
WITHOUT ATATURK THIS WOULD HAVE BEEN THE RESULT:
AHALAHALAHALAHALAHALAHALAHALAHALAHALAHALAHA and then

From: "haci_mirtaza" Jun 10, 2008
SIVRI AKILLI KANUN DIYE YUZNUMARA KAGIDINA KARALANANLA SANA " KARA DEGNEGI BASI" NAZIK YERINE DOKANDIGINDA SAKINA ALLAH ALLAH DIYE BAGIRMA YALNIZ BASI DEGIL KOKUDE SENINLE OLUR ALLAHSIZ SOYTARI

From: Macreau@...Jun 10, 2008
Be more explicit....." Geveleyip duruyorsun .."....

From: "barbarosarii" Jun 11, 2008
What is there to elaborate? Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan. Aren't these great places to live in? To be a woman? Or to choose to be without faith? What is the consequence to be born to a Muslim family and choose to be faithless in Saudistan? IS IT DEATH, or am I mistaken.
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Scenes from a Turk Basher Yahoo Group so called "TurkishArmenianFriendship"
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